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Author Topic: 3 questions: Cal3d, Terraformer, XML.  (Read 7249 times)
Kriss
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« on: July 24, 2006, 02:04:00 pm »

Greetings!
I have a bunch of questions if you don't mind:

1.)
I tried to use 3ds max (version 5.1) model exported using "cal3d_exporter_binaries-0.10.0"
while I tried to view it with "cal3d_miniviewers_binaries-0.10.0" everything was Ok
But while I tried to use it in "celtst" I got this and I can't understand why... Is this version (0.10.0) is too old? Then where can I find a newer exporter?

2.)
I tried to use terraformer plugin (or whatelse) plugin for world creation, but got problems with high mountains: visible terrain geometry, and one used for collision detection (one you walk upon) are different and sometimes you're able to look under the suface. Is there anything I can do to avoid this while still having great level differences?

3.)
XML
By default we can only test levels with "world" file describing level properties, is there any way to split them into a smaller files using <?include xxx /> in any way? Because I tried this and didn't suceed (used <include> xxx </include> in splitted files)...
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jorrit
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« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2006, 02:07:23 pm »

Greetings!
I have a bunch of questions if you don't mind:

1.)
I tried to use 3ds max (version 5.1) model exported using "cal3d_exporter_binaries-0.10.0"
while I tried to view it with "cal3d_miniviewers_binaries-0.10.0" everything was Ok
But while I tried to use it in "celtst" I got this and I can't understand why... Is this version (0.10.0) is too old? Then where can I find a newer exporter?

Can't help with this.

Quote
2.)
I tried to use terraformer plugin (or whatelse) plugin for world creation, but got problems with high mountains: visible terrain geometry, and one used for collision detection (one you walk upon) are different and sometimes you're able to look under the suface. Is there anything I can do to avoid this while still having great level differences?

You can increase collision detection resolution (search for 'cd resolution' in the world file of terrainf as an example). We are currently working on better solutions for this though.

Quote
3.)
XML
By default we can only test levels with "world" file describing level properties, is there any way to split them into a smaller files using <?include xxx /> in any way? Because I tried this and didn't suceed (used <include> xxx </include> in splitted files)...

You can do something like this:

Master world file:

<world>
  <library>path_to_file1</library>
  <library>path_to_file2</library>
  ...
</world>

Greetings,
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Kriss
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« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2006, 03:09:56 pm »

Thanks, BTW that was fast Smiley

Quote from: jorrit
Can't help with this.
Sorry, but I need to know (no wonder, I can do nothing without characters), so I'll try to ask being more specific
I downloaded everything from here:
http://download.gna.org/cal3d/sources/cal3d_miniviewers_binaries-0.10.0.zip
http://download.gna.org/cal3d/sources/cal3d_exporter_binaries-0.10.0.zip
You mean that I used correct version of Cal3D (since in Cal3D itself everything looked Ok, while in celtst it wasn't)?
Or CS uses a different version? Then where can I find suitable exporters (or something similar)? Or there are restriction on number of polygons per mesh (21K polys here)? It's just a mesh with one smoothing group, and in one piece.

Quote from: jorrit
You can do something like this:

Master world file:

<world>
  <library>path_to_file1</library>
  <library>path_to_file2</library>
  ...
</world>
Is it just plainly adds lines from these files to world file?
So if I want to have world mesh geometry to be stored in different file, what should I write instead of this:
=============================
<world>
    <textures>
        <?include textures.xml ?>
    </textures>
    <materials>
        <?include materials.xml ?>
    </materials>
    <plugins>
        <?include plugins.xml ?>
    </plugins>
<start>
<sector>room</sector>
<position x="1" y="100" z="100" />
</start>
    <sector name="room">
        <cullerp>crystalspace.culling.dynavis</cullerp>
        <meshobj name="floor">
            <plugin>thing</plugin>
            <params>
             <?include geometry.xml ?>
            </params>
            <zuse />
            <priority>object</priority>
        </meshobj>
            <light name="Light1">
              <center x="100" y="100" z="100" />
              <radius>250</radius>
              <color red="2" green="2" blue="2" />
              <dynamic />
            </light>
    </sector>
    <settings />
</world>
=============================
In other words: how to use these libraries, how to start/end these files (I know it sounds stupid... But I have to ask...)
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jorrit
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« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2006, 03:17:05 pm »

Basically the libraries are files that contains things like:

<library>
  <textures>
    ...
  </textures>
  <meshfact ...>
  </meshfact>
  ...
</library>

You give those a name and then in one other world file you use:

<library>thatname</library>

That will load the library in the other world file.

Greetings,
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Kriss
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« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2006, 03:43:56 pm »

Thank you!
Sorry, just looked at DL page of main CS site, and found that I  somehow used exactly the same exporters (although I DL them among ALL other versions using CAL3D page.)

Looks like Cal3D is unable to process higher-polygon meshes, since low-poly ones are working Ok, and even this one works while attached to only one bone (Pelvis 1,0), but while I try to attach it to more than one bone, distortions are happen. It's not 100% confirmed at this moment (I'll test it again soon) but it looks that way... That's bad, because 20K polys for a character isn't too much at this moment (I was able to play The Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind with this character, and this game isn't new)... I'll try to split it...

Hope this will be fixed, since I'm unable to do it by myself. I even don't know why there are differences between miniviewer's Cal3D system and one used with CS... :shrug:
« Last Edit: July 24, 2006, 06:39:12 pm by Kriss » Logged
jorrit
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« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2006, 08:01:27 pm »

Hmm 20k triangles for a player model is pretty high though. Most games still use a lot less then that. In any case, the gmeshskelanim system that is now in CS doesn't have that limitation. Using blender2crystal you can export to that too but you need very recent version of CS (i.e. latest svn) and there is not much documentation yet.

Greetings,
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Kriss
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« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2006, 04:08:21 am »

Hmm 20k triangles for a player model is pretty high though. Most games still use a lot less then that. In any case, the gmeshskelanim system that is now in CS doesn't have that limitation. Using blender2crystal you can export to that too but you need very recent version of CS (i.e. latest svn) and there is not much documentation yet.

Greetings,
It's 50/50 for today's games. I'm not sure about poly count for models in The Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion (I'm unable to play it), but let's just say players want better models. At Psychodog Studios Forums (they created "Better Bodies" plugin for TES3: Morrowind) There are bunch of projects on improvings standard TES4 bodies. And they will have a polygon count of approximately 20K. In most cases it's enough to have a quite round bodies (if you're also using additional texture maps).

BTW you might be interested in Better Bodies original meshes, they're sonsisting of approximately 3K triangles with 512x512 texture, free to use (If you want, I can ask them about this.). I even have a custom varian of BB mesh with armour and head. 4,5K triangles.
And I have different sword meshes:
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v253/_Kriss_/11swords.jpg
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v253/_Kriss_/swords.jpg

Although everything mentioned in this post was made in 3ds max (including Better Bodies).
I tried to use Blender, but I wasn't able to move bottom panel to the side. Besides I can't change myself, I instinctively trying to push certain buttons Smiley
I'm too attached to 3ds max I guess... So this 3ds max exporter aren't working with latest version of CS?
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jorrit
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« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2006, 07:29:27 am »

Can't answer about 3dsmax exporter as I know nothing about that but I would be surprised if they didn't work because they are still actively used in many projects (like PlaneShift).

Greetings,
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Kriss
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« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2006, 06:55:18 pm »

Another problem... I can't use 3ds file in my scene.
It's just a plane named "floor" 2000x2000, 16x16 squares that uses "texture" material with "TEXTURE.BMP" file.
Exported from 3ds max 5.1. I can import it back, but I can't use it in my scene.
I completely understand that you (jorrit) probably have no idea about .3ds files and such, but is there a person who knows something?
In case I just screwed something up, I attached (it's actually a zip archive with quite strange world files with .3ds file).
Still using version 06.01.27

* test.txt (7.11 KB - downloaded 312 times.)
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jorrit
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« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2006, 07:35:00 am »

Can you tell me what error you get when you try?

Greetings,
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Kriss
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« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2006, 01:27:27 pm »

None, just a blank screen, and blinking lines of feedback on executed commands, like

Recalculation of lightmaps forced.
Initialising lighting (1 meshes).
0%...10%...20%... (and so on...)
Shining lights (1 lights).
0%...(and so on...)
Time taken: 0.0160 seconds.
Caching lighting (1 meshes).
0%...(and so on...)
Precaching all things...
Precaching finished...
Computing OBBs...
-------------------------------------

BTW, returning to my previous questions...
Regarding 20k poly character mesh:
I can't DL new version of CS because I have no access to high-speed connection, so right now I edited files placed in ".\plugins\mesh\genmesh\skelanim\"
gmeshskelanim.h
"int idx" changed to "float idx" and something about "idx" in gmeshskelanim.cpp
Is this correct? If not, is this possible to receive newer versions (like attachment to your post, for example)?
« Last Edit: August 08, 2006, 01:35:03 pm by Kriss » Logged
jorrit
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« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2006, 01:38:00 pm »

BTW, returning to my previous questions...
Regarding 20k poly character mesh:
I can't DL new version of CS because I have no access to high-speed connection, so right now I edited files placed in ".\plugins\mesh\genmesh\skelanim\"
gmeshskelanim.h
"int idx" changed to "float idx" and something about "idx" in gmeshskelanim.cpp
Is this correct? If not, is this possible to receive newer versions (like attachment to your post, for example)?

It is unlikely that that will be correct. You really need a more recent version I'm afraid. The changes are huge.

Greetings,
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Kriss
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« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2006, 07:12:28 pm »

About using .3ds files: I tried to use them with new SVN version with no luck. Used 3ds max 5.1 and blender 2.41 for this. 3ds2lev convert these files, aslo I was able to import these files back to these programs.
But that won't be a problem if I'll understand how to clearly convert 3d models to XML to have, for example, a file named "castle" which will contain 3d model of a castle and reference to textures it uses i. e. the same info I had in .max file...
Is it possible?
File format is irrelevant, but I can't figure-out how to have a "clean" model files in libraries without "factory" and other data... That's what I wanted to achieve by using .3ds files.
It's called "cutlets separately, and flies separately" here, (translation from Russian might be a bit confusing). And is there any way to view (or import back to 3d modeling program) these files?

About XML: as I understand, it stores data on vertices' position with their position on texture, triangles they're belong to, and sometimes normals. Is there an importer/exporter for 3ds (or whatelse) to read/write such files except 3ds2lev.exe? I heard about Planeshift exporters, and saw their page, but wasn't able to find what I'm looking for...

And in conclusion: you wrote that "We are currently working on better solutions for this though." about Terraformer plugin... Can't you elaborate? Which is the best way to create a vast landscapes like we might see in Lineage2 or Morrowind/Oblivion?
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